Friday, 30 May 2008
Steve Martin wrote:
: From: "Christopher England" <...>
:
: : Would it have happened anyway, or is it a reaction to the years of
: : Labour tyranny we've been and are continuing to endure?
:
: Wow Christopher, I had a very detailed reply all written out, but I
: have
: had a pint, and it was very very deep, so I deleted it!
: It took me about 90 minutes to write, but this is a radio forum so
: I'll
: stick to what I know!
: But a short answer, without going into the history of Nazi Germany
: (don't ask) is probably, no it wouldn't have happened under a
: right-wing
: Thatcherite government!
I note with disapproval the rise of a similar thing with more votes going to the BNP :(
Street crime is not all down to immigrants, I've seen plenty of caucasian teenager chavs kicking off and no coppers in sight – all too busy back at the station filling in paperwork to meet government targets.
In article <5c6eabf3f5dad8ebe035d71bebd587b4@jiglu-wc>, ... (RC Guff) wrote:
Sorry, just can't see much of the youth giving two tosses
whether
they listen to radjo, mpfree playa or Mobile fone, "if dare
ain't
no booze, iz dont wanna chooz" might be the typical response.
Hmmmmmmmm
Tings have changed here since you emmigrated Eric
As a teenager I had various proper Bikes, BSA, Triumph, Greeves etc.
One of my friends of that era still suffers today.
He was blinded in one eye during a Mods n Rockers brawl in Southend. That was the 60's, so what has changed?
Because it's 2008, I can watch the news from almost any country in the world, nice big satellite dish. Where this has brought change is that events can be shown in greater detail.
When my friend was attacked in Southend all the nighty news said was that there was a fight – no detail. Today there would have been detail on News24, SkyNews and even Euronews have covered the knife crime in the UK.
So I would say the media now has the opportunity to share such crime in detail, and hopefully do something to reduce it, where as in the 1960s so much of this crime was only reported as a one line sentence in the script.
Now what really annoys me is those who probably know about this sort of crime because of events close to them many years ago seem to take the stance old people did in the 60's. 'All teenagers are useless, not worth the effort, there music is rubbish, they all take drugs, they're all thugs'. That attitude didn't help in the 1960's so why would taking such a stance today help?
Eric
Eric Tesug <...> said:
In article <5c6eabf3f5dad8ebe035d71bebd587b4@jiglu-wc>,
... (RC Guff) wrote:
Sorry, just can't see much of the youth giving two tosses
whether
they listen to radjo, mpfree playa or Mobile fone, "if dare
ain't
no booze, iz dont wanna chooz" might be the typical response.
Hmmmmmmmm
Tings have changed here since you emmigrated Eric
As a teenager I had various proper Bikes, BSA, Triumph, Greeves etc.
One of my friends of that era still suffers today.He was blinded in one eye during a Mods n Rockers brawl in Southend.
That was the 60's, so what has changed?Eric
Blimey Eric, you trying to compare the 60's with today? Either you have been out of this country for too long or that Slovak Mountain Air has got to you. If you don't know the difference or can't see it, then there is no good trying to explain,
Gangs of the 60s fought between each other, the Krays before someone else say, Ohhh, yer but wat bout da Krays, they fought other nasties. Today, anyone is a target / victim.
Da Guff - wid me IdenTiti Crisis innit
In article <84f056c1261dc028e6429724d2b2fd22@jiglu-wc>, ... (RC Guff) wrote:
Gangs of the 60s fought between each other, the Krays before
someone else say, Ohhh, yer but wat bout da Krays, they fought
other nasties. Today, anyone is a target / victim.
As they were in the 60's. During the same brawl I described, a man just walking with his little daughter was punched by Thugs – so things still haven't changed.
The old carrot of you being away for to long really doesn't stack up. As it goes I have been around the UK, as per any other person locked in there house, cos they feel nervous going out, I can watch the reports.
I stand by what I said, the 60's were the same just people don't want to remember the bad bits.
And old people today think all the kids are rubbish – NO SO!
Try getting involved with this organisation http://www.youngpeopleoftheyear.co.uk/
Eric
From: "Steve Leyland" <...>
I note with disapproval the rise of a similar thing with more votes
going to the BNP :(Street crime is not all down to immigrants, I've seen plenty of
caucasian teenager chavs kicking off and no coppers in sight – all too
busy back at the station filling in paperwork to meet government
targets.
You are right of course. You are trying to get me to start about Nazi Germany aren't you?
The Germans were a highly civilised intelligent nation, and it only took a strong leader to turn a highly disillusioned majority of the population against the minority scapegoats.
The BNP are preying on those similar fears now, luckily for us they don't seem to have a brain cell between them to turn the majority of the majority to their way of thinking. The one thing we must guard against is a strong leader doing it more subtly and controlling the media too.
As for Labour, "tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime", as Jim Royle would say, "My arse!"
From: "tesug" <...>
Now what really annoys me is those who probably know about this sort of
crime because of events close to them many years ago seem to take the
stance old people did in the 60's. 'All teenagers are useless, not worth
the effort, there music is rubbish, they all take drugs, they're all
thugs'. That attitude didn't help in the 1960's so why would taking such
a stance today help?
That is the easy way out Eric. Blame the yoof. Old man syndrome, I constantly try and move away from it but do lapse occasionally, normally while discussing it with other people of similar age, thus forgetting that 25–30 years ago we were the yobs of the time. I can say personally I never mugged anyone, burgled anyone, but I was guilty of what we now call anti-social behaviour, drinking, taking drugs and being a general nuisance, so in relative terms I don't think things have changed much. Is knife crime more of a problem than it was 25–30 years ago or is the media coverage better these days? I dunno really, back in the 70's & 80's people were getting stabbed all the time at football matches.
I can't speak about the 60's as I was born in 1965, but people tell me you could leave your door unlocked, and there was respect for other people. But watching Heartbeat the 60's look as bad as today :-)
But seriously, although crime seems to be bad today, personally I don't fear crime as much today as I did back in the early 1980's. Back then it seemed to me to be more drug crime, burglaries, muggings than there are today. I have no facts or figures to back this up, just gut instinct. Back in the 80's I even personally knew 2 people that were murdered, in separate incidents, one in 1984 and another in 1986.
So for me things have got better since then.
Good point you make about media coverage, I wonder if we had 24 hour news channels in the 60's or early 80's would that have changed people's perception of crime?
Blimey Eric, you trying to compare the 60's with today? Either you have
been out of this country for too long or that Slovak Mountain Air has
got to you. If you don't know the difference or can't see it, then there
is no good trying to explain,Gangs of the 60s fought between each other, the Krays before someone
else say, Ohhh, yer but wat bout da Krays, they fought other nasties.
Today, anyone is a target / victim.
I can't comment about the 60's, but certainly the 80's were pretty bad.
It appears Planet Rock has been sold, which is good news.
But it also appears it hasn't been sold to Brian May's consortium but to an unnamed third party.
Steve Martin <...> said:
It appears Planet Rock has been sold, which is good news.
But it also appears it hasn't been sold to Brian May's consortium but to an
unnamed third party.
Shhhhhhh! That was me, I'm calling it Planet Caroline, "Spinng tunes around Uranus".
In article <...>, ... (Steve Martin) wrote:
As for Labour, "tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime", as
Jim Royle would say, "My arse!"
Maybe I'm missing something, and I do write this with GREAT respect to your former comments Steve.
In more civilised countries you can't blame the gov for everything. Sure there is evidence that a political party isn't doing something, there again what was the previous gov hammered for – increases in crime.
It's much to easy to blame others, when the base values of a teenager must surely come from there upbringing?
Yes there is a small area where schools are involved, but not the majority of the time.
The reality check can be played out on the above subject and that of radio. Radio isn't what some want so why are they doing nothing that has a long term chance of changing things.
Radio ships are a dead-duck as are many of the other terrestrial unauthorised outlets. Sure some of the better community ones do actually do something, but more often than not the remainder doing nothing other than generate 'Mental Masturbation'.
The Lady on/in BBC Essex talking about how her son was killed and she is now out there coaching other teenagers should be a guiding light to so many, if they really care about there respective communities.
Maybe if the me, me, me changed into we, we, we – that would make a difference.
Eric
In article <...>, ... (Steve Martin) wrote:
think things have changed much. Is knife crime more of a problem
than it was 25_30 years ago or is the media coverage better these
days? I dunno really, back in the 70's & 80's people were getting
stabbed all the time at football matches.
You just made me shudder – memories of my car being destroyed by Millwall fans, me inside, as they oafed they way through Luton claiming they were going to see a football match. I can still see the Police vehicles being turned over and having to go to AirCall the after and apologising for using bad language on there open channel whilst yelling for more Police to be requested.
Good point you make about media coverage, I wonder if we had 24
hour news channels in the 60's or early 80's would that have
changed people's perception of crime?
Thing is we will never know, as we never can.
Eric
Eric Tesug <...> said:
Maybe if the me, me, me changed into we, we, we – that would make a
difference.
Reading the recent comments on this board lately I was glad to see Eric write the things he did. I agree totally with the comments you make. I might add that I think rolling news has a lot to answer for on peoples perception of the increase in crime. I have no idea whether the level of intimidation and crime has increased or not, like many on here I am now looking at it from an older mans perspective.
One thing that did make me laugh was that I was walking home from work across our local park, a couple of weeks earlier a man close to my age of 45 was seriously assaulted for allegedly asking a group of youths to stop being anti social, so approaching them I was trying not to look too intimidated . As I walked along and approached a group of eight youngsters one of the group said “Hello mate” I replied "evening, you alright" “Fine” he said "have a good evening" “you too” I replied. I then over heard him saying to the other people in the group “see not everyone round here is a miserable old git” Engagement and open mindedness is the key and not tar everyone with the same brush,
Steve
From: "tesug" <...>
In article <...>,
... (Steve Martin) wrote:As for Labour, "tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime", as
Jim Royle would say, "My arse!"Maybe I'm missing something, and I do write this with GREAT respect to
your former comments Steve.
The point that I'm making is that if you come into power using such a slogan, you really should have a pro-active stance. I fear that stance was lost somewhere in all the spin.
In more civilised countries you can't blame the gov for everything. Sure
there is evidence that a political party isn't doing something, there
again what was the previous gov hammered for – increases in crime.It's much to easy to blame others, when the base values of a teenager
must surely come from there upbringing?
Yes there is a small area where schools are involved, but not the
majority of the time.
Agreed. I try and bring my girls up to respect each other firstly, which can be difficult, and respect everybody else too. I think I'm very liberal in certain areas and fairly strict in others. It was only the other day that I was really proud of one of them for challenging a classmate after a racist remark was made against one of her friends. It made me realise that I am doing something right in my life!
The Lady on/in BBC Essex talking about how her son was killed and she is
now out there coaching other teenagers should be a guiding light to so
many, if they really care about there respective communities.
I think great respect is due to this lady. How many of us if put in a similar situation would react in that way? I suspect not many, indeed I think I would probably turn into a nasty hate filled individual out to get even with the world. Which would probably make me feel better but would probably have a negative effect on society, only adding to problems not solving any.
Maybe if the me, me, me changed into we, we, we – that would make a
difference.
Sadly I think that is something that has been lost forever in most of us.
From: "tesug" <...>
You just made me shudder – memories of my car being destroyed by
Millwall fans, me inside, as they oafed they way through Luton claiming
they were going to see a football match. I can still see the Police
vehicles being turned over and having to go to AirCall the after and
apologising for using bad language on there open channel whilst yelling
for more Police to be requested.
Gladly football has done it's best to rid itself of most of these idiots although it does crop up occasionally. I have no problem taking my girls to football these days, something I would never had done had they been around in the 80's.
From: "Stephen Sullivan" <...>
One thing that did make me laugh was that I was walking home from work
across our local park, a couple of weeks earlier a man close to my age
of 45 was seriously assaulted for allegedly asking a group of youths to
stop being anti social, so approaching them I was trying not to look too
intimidated . As I walked along and approached a group of eight
youngsters one of the group said “Hello mate” I replied "evening, you
alright" “Fine” he said "have a good evening" “you too” I replied. I
then over heard him saying to the other people in the group “see not
everyone round here is a miserable old git” Engagement and open
mindedness is the key and not tar everyone with the same brush,
Nice story. It just goes to show that we probably think the yoof are all drug taking alcoholic yobs, and they think we are moaning old codgers. Good to see the stereotypes broken in this story :-)
In article <...>, ... (Steve Martin) wrote:
Gladly football has done it's best to rid itself of most of these
idiots although it does crop up occasionally. I have no problem
taking my girls to football these days, something I would never had
done had they been around in the 80's.
So we're back in a circle that the 80's were not so clever – hmmmm.
60's weren't so clever – so maybe we're in that cycle.
1940's were full of fighting, same for 60's, 80's and now 20 hundreds.
Eric
From: "tesug" <...>
So we're back in a circle that the 80's were not so clever – hmmmm.
60's weren't so clever – so maybe we're in that cycle.
1940's were full of fighting, same for 60's, 80's and now 20 hundreds.
Yeah 1914 wasn't a particularly good year either!
Quoting a previous Steve Leyland contribution:-
I note with disapproval the rise of a similar thing with more votes
going to the BNP :(
It's a phase. I remember when the 'National Front' was all the rage back in the 1970s, and then died away.
I specifically remember it not because of any sympathy or hatred, but because I remember the instructions that were barked out by my local chapel of the NUJ. In those days you weren't allowed to write in papers unless you were NUJ. Anybody outside of this closed shop had to find alternative employment. The NUJ instructions were quite categorically that if any articles appeared anywhere that showed the National Front in a good light, then the author would be thrown out of the NUJ. In other words, they would no longer have any work. The instructions also encouraged journalists to always write negatively and emphasise bad things about the NF. At one chapel meeting there was even a suggestion that bad stories about the NF be made up.
So, my immediate memory of the National Front is that the national press, television and radio was not allowed to write or broadcast anything balanced or positive about them. Those were the lovely days of trade unionism trying to force people to believe only what they wanted them to. Thank goodness for Margaret Thatcher coming along and putting a stop to all that, and allowing free speech!
Street crime is not all down to immigrants, I've seen plenty of
caucasian teenager chavs kicking off and no coppers in sight – all too
busy back at the station filling in paperwork to meet government
targets.
I have this theory that were we to bring back the death sentence for carrying anything that is designed specifically to kill, like large knives, guns, etc., that we'd suddenly have reclaimed our streets.
I'm waiting to see what the Boris initiatives are for fighting street crime in London. It's a shame the CPS and the out-of-touch Courts never back the police up by putting heavy sentences as a norm on street criminals.
--
* Christopher England just said that *
Quoting a previous Steve Martin contribution:-
Maybe if the me, me, me changed into we, we, we – that would make a
difference.Sadly I think that is something that has been lost forever in most of
us.
Hmmm. Surely that assumes that we were once a we, we, we people. I would vote that we've nearly always been a me, me, me people. It's never changed.
--
* Christopher England just said that *
Quoting a previous tesug contribution:-
When my friend was attacked in Southend all the nighty news said was
that there was a fight – no detail. Today there would have been detail
on News24, SkyNews and even Euronews have covered the knife crime in the
UK.
Hmmm. I'm not so sure. I'm in London again for a while, and one afternoon last week I heard a very loud helicopter next to my gaff. It landed in an adjacent school playground. Not that I'm a helicopter anorak or anything, but I ran out to have a look. It was the air ambulance. I noticed police cars arriving and parts of the area being taped off. They rushed a young lad of 15 – 16 to the helicopter right in front of me and it took off. According to eyewitnesses and a lady police person he had been stabbed multiple times and was barely alive. A road ambulance eventually drove off with another victim inside, with very bad chest wounds that were not thought to be life threatening.
Apparently the two lads had been walking home from school when they were set upon by a gang who, according to a lady who witnessed it from her window, laughed and jeered and kicked the boys as they screamed and stabbed them more even though they were both on the ground bleeding profusely, and one of them motionless.
The gang then ran off down through a network of alleyways. A police helicopter hovered for a short while but then went away. They were never caught, as far as we can tell.
Now, to the point of this meandering story: Despite the cordoned area remaining taped off until the next day, a load of police teams in those funny light blue overalls doing a finger-tip search, and some sniffer dogs searching through bushes, so it obviously consuming police time and money, the story never made it to the local paper let alone the nationals, or tv or radio. I know because I hunted for it. I can find lesser stories for the same area, but not this one. In other words, as far as the media is concerned this never happened. They don't know anything about it. Such is the regularity of these events, unless a person actually dies you just don't hear about it. It's no longer news.
—
* Christopher England just said that *
